[EVA] Concurrency tangent (WAS: Alternate Rei on DVD cover)

[Gwern Branwen]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:53 AM, Peter Svensson <sun1jack at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  If we don't know immortal souls, we must proceed as if there
>> are no immortal souls. Burden of proof, neh?
>
> But given the existence of souls, and that immortality is an attribute that is by default associated with them, it is in fact you who have the burden of proof that Evangelion is a setting that has souls, but ones that don't survive the death of the body, which given that's rather the entire point of a soul...

We know 'souls' exist in NGE in the same way 'Angels' exist. We can no
more infer that NGE 'souls' are immortal than we can infer that Angels
are the good guys, acting under orders from an omnipotent bearded
dude. Souls are traditionally considered to be unmixable and eternally
separate, too. Christianity isn't the only religion name-checked in
NGE; Buddhism's 108 sins and the shell corporations, anyone? One of
the most significant doctrines early Buddhism used to differentiate
itself from Jainism & Hinduism & the various philosophical darsanas
was the doctrine of anatman - *no eternal soul. No need to point out
which religion Japanese would be more familiar with and believe more.

(Among Swedenborg's more notable heresies was the idea that the souls
of lovers would be completely merged in Heaven. I am unaware of the
idea of souls being fusible appearing before the 1700s.)

If the souls are immortal and incorporeal, why do countless aspects of
the series suggest otherwise? From every soul having a body (eg. Yui
in Eva 01) to not being permanent (Yui needing an immortal S^2-powered
body to be a marker, rather than being a ghost) to being manipulable
and storable (Rei & Kaworu) to being physical objects in their own
right (EoE's little red drops) - yes, we can explain away all of these
as ambiguous or having some other reason, but at some point one begins
to wonder. _Hic Rhodes, hic saltus_.

>> But I guess this time around they couldn't stick to
>> their guns; much like they *had* to include an awesome mecha battle to
>> appease fans, they *had* to include a real world scene.
>
> Projecting. While you may have preferred it had Gainax done it that way, we aren't in a position to know whether they felt obliged to include action scenes, or that given their previous work Gainax was disappointed about not being able to include action scenes in the TV ending.

I've given multiple reasons why Gainax would cut a reality scene, and
pointed out how they would not apply to EoE. I don't think that is
projection. (Now, if I cited Anno's remarks to the effect that he
liked the TV ending and was satisfied, and you said this was obvious
sour grapes and self-defense, that would be 'projection' indeed...)

>> So, because they didn't have the time to do the ending they wanted,
>> they did all the work to outline the ending they wanted in enough
>> detail to show things like Misato or Ritsuko's bodies, create it so
>> close to the 'real' EoE ending that countless people would be fooled
>> for decades into thinking they're the same ending, and then figure out
>> and create an appropriate evil twisted ending?
>
> They already had the work on the original ending done, remember? Misato and Ritsuko's bodies are leftovers from the storyboarding of Air as TV 25. And if you're going to do the "real" ending later, why not make the TV ending a distinct seperate entity? Likewise, that some people would think they're the same ending is like people assuming that Misato killed Kaji, the evidence in the show is clearly against it but people responded emotionally towards it anyways.

My point: it is strictly simpler to 1) work out the EoE ending all the
way to storyboards, and animate the mental portions; than to 2) work
out the EoE ending all the way to storyboards, and animate the mental
portions, and work out a bizarre twist, and animate the bizarre twist.

'why not make the TV ending a distinct separate entity?' Because
Gainax is falling apart, everyone, even the director, is frantically
animating, trying to get it all together in time for the deadline!
Cels are being lost! Outsourcing is constant! Public input is pouring
in! There's constant criticism and pressure being applied by the
network & PTA & internal censors!

Under these circumstances, there's no time to spare for fancy
subversive trick endings. Where do you get the idea that they have the
time & energy to do the extra work of #2? When in a crunch, you do the
simplest possible thing that could work. You don't go 'I'm going to
make something later, so let's get *really* fancy!'

>> Wouldn't it have been easier to just do a cut-down/mental-focus
>> version of the real end? (Like my theory suggests.)
>
> How do we know that the original script for TV 26 DIDN'T have Shinji accepting Instrumentality? We've never been privy to it.

What if the original script actually focused on the Case of Pen-Pen,
and the central lie of Eva was that the story was ever about humans?
<cue rehash of teapot-by-Mercury point, and add in Invisible Pink
Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster so you will stop making up
imaginary hypotheticals already!>

>> Well, his 'information' doesn't agree with your theory either!
>
> That you can read the ending as Shinji entering a cult works with the idea that it ends with Instrumentality. If he had interpreted the ending as Shinji rejecting it, as him affirming his individuality, he would have responded differently.
>
> You're saying "I don't like this man's reaction to the ending, which was written in the heat of the moment back when the show first came out and is one of the few English language sources we have of a Japanese fan's reaction to the ending" because you disliked someone else's theories.

Ep 26 of the LTP says:
    "I have nothing to say. Eva#26 the final Episode was a collage of
    graffiti, and a collection of the words of cult or sect leaders.
    "The instrumentality of man project" was nothing but brainwashing.

    I have a good suggestion for those who read this script.  Replace the
    name "Shinji" with "GAINAX", and replace "Eva" or "piloting Eva" with
    "The making of Evangelion", the resulting script will completely make
    sense.

    Now that it is obvious that the making of Evangelion itself has been
    the excuse to make Evangelion, after all."

Reconcile the last 2 paragraphs with your idea that this fan sees the
ending as having Shinji accept the 'brainwashing' of the 'cult'.

>> How do they work for your choosing-Instrumentality theory? Are the majority
>> deluded saps?
>
> That the ending at the end has Shinji lose his individuality does not in any way diminish the message that you can be happy if you desire to. Please understand, the TV ending's moral got me through some bad times as a young man. Had I been living in Japan at the time, and had I not been horribly afraid of confronting Anno due to my insulting him inadvertantly when speaking with Yamaga, I probably would have written a similar letter. But no one said anything in their letters about Shinji rejecting Instrumentality. They don't talk about the spiritual mechanics at all really, just the emotional truth.

I don't see how your ending *doesn't* diminish the message.

I think we both agree that EoE conveys the message that you can be
happy (if you want to). And that with ending A.

You say the TV ending *also* conveys that same message, but with ending not-A.

If the message is the same regardless of whether the ending is A or
not-A, aren't you saying the ending makes no difference?

Further, I don't understand how becoming a part of Instrumentality
could help you be happy. That humanity must die in all its billions
and merge into a single inert blob before anyone can be happy - that
helps you? ???

That is, shall we say, a message not very useful in daily life.

> Also, you're ignoring the selection bias. Anno isn't going to pick letters that go into detail about the nitpicky elements of the ending, he wants clear emotional response, not fanwank.

So you think the letters don't say anything useful. Even though they
are in response to a trick/parodic ending, Anno's selection says
nothing about how one should or could react to that ending?

> I'm going to regroup here for a second.
>
> My argument is that the two endings are not two sides of the same coin, but that there are major differences in the narrative of the two that require that they be treated as divergent timelines or alternate universes.
>
> TV Shinji is a passive participant in Instrumentality. He isn't given any sort of power or agency over what happens to him. Gendo appears to be in charge of what is going on. The Telop has to listen to Gendo.

I take it you are basing this on the single line, 'Behold, I give you
a constraint'?

> At the end, reality shatters and Shinji emerges into a blue void and is greeted by everyone, dead and alive alike, and Shinji then becomes the telop.
>
> Movie Shinji is an active observer in Instrumentality. He has the power to decide humanity's destiny. Gendo is killed and doesn't have the power to control anything. The telop (Lillith) is responsible for Gendo's demise. At the end, Shinji returns to the physical world and is reunited with Asuka.
>
> Now, whether you agree with my premise, the fact that there are differences in the two endings is obvious. The question is whether the differences are large enough to justify them not being treated as one and the same through different points of view. By focusing solely on those elements which ARE the same, Misato and Ritsuko's deaths, the use of the fan as symbolic for Misato and Kaji having sex, the idea of Instrumentality, a sequence not set in the "real" world of the series, fans are able to convince themselves that the two endings are synonymous. But where you look at the similarities, I look at the differences.
>
> The big thing we're caught up on here is that you look at the ending of the TV show and go "Oh look, the script was all about Shinji finding his self worth, so then he's finding pride in himself, and so he must be escaping Instrumentality! He's returning to the real world!" But I look at the visuals, which have the auditorium (and what DOES having it be the setting for Death mean?!) shatter and Shinji floating in a blue void and then speaking with the voice of the omniscient narrator, as proof that we're not supposed to get the message that TV Shinji returned to reality.
>
> That final scene is staged like a definitive ending. We have our big dramatic moment, Shinji deciding that he wants to exist and then reality crumbling,

Reality crumbling?

> then the denoument of Shinji being congratulated by everyone, big happy moment, and then Shinji smiles just like everyone else, says goodbye the end. It doesn't read as a "to be continued!" It has the emotional content of an "And they all lived happily ever after! (because they don't have AT fields anymore)" It's an ending. Evangelion ends with Shinji in a surreal landscape. If it's supposed to be "Shinji returns to reality" then they sure picked a really poor way to illustrate that, and I tend to think that Gainax knows what they're doing. Mostly.
>
> But hey, as I stated earlier, none of us will ever make any sort of progress in this discussion. We should instead focus on issues that can actually get somewhere, like why a single scene in TV 25 was altered to widescreen for the home video release. Or why we have two different versions of the scene where Asuka abuses Shinji in 26'? Or whether PenPen died in the explosion that took out Tokyo 3.
>
> Peter Svensson

It would be hard for me to discuss variations in scenes over the
releases since I do not own any of the many releases (since that I do
not despise money and wish to give it all to Gainax).

But don't we already know the answer to PenPen? Episode 24:

    Misato:         We are lucky because we live in the suburb of the city.
                    You were not involved, I'm glad about that.
                    Yet, next time, I cannot garantee that.
                    So, you will be taken care of at Horaki-san's from tomorrow.
                    So long, PenPen.

    PenPen:         Quaa, quaquauu.

He was sent out of Tokyo-3 with Hikari and the rest, no? Misato would
have to have really screwed up to send him out of the 'suburb' to
protect him but not far enough to escape the explosion.

-- 
gwern